A hypothetical rebuttal to V.Selbst’s comments from a twoplustwo poker forum thread re: Brian Hastings Accounting.
Before I start I would like to suggest/ask that any interested and sincere readers of this article and thewealthofchips blog watch this documentary. This seems to be the key bridge between the things that players like Selbst aren’t understanding about the technological tools we have available today:
The bold and in quotes is from “fslexcduck” addressed to the community of 2p2 and also certain specific members. I give my “mock” responses (all Fducks posts can be found here):
So I’ve only read a really small piece of this thread, apologies if I’m repeating.
I think y’all really need to think about what you’re doing as a community. Crucifying someone who is MA’ing is absolutely terrible for poker. Basically, the people who wind up getting burned at the stake (BH, gboro, etc) are the people who were trying to do the “right thing” and come out to some people about their accounts. The people who say nothing to anyone get away scot free.
I’m not condoning the activity of MA’ing but from a pragmatic point of view, what’s more likely to result from threads like these – that everyone stops MA’ing, or that they stop coming out to ANYONE at any time?
Furthermore, the idea of blaming Jason Mercier for not coming out with the info is the same situation. If he is supposed to be punished for not immediately outing someone who comes out to him, you basically just ensure that Jason now has to play poker against multiaccounters without that info. Sure, it’s a pessimistic attitude, but it’s reality.
Since this is a sort of a lose-lose, the only result of threads like these or blaming Mercier is creating totally perverse incentives. Given that, there just has to be some sort of change in the rules/ethical code about changing screen names, or something else has gotta give. I just think it’s so short-sighted for everyone to pile on in these instances. Things are not black and white, there are gray areas. What BH did isn’t great of course, but surely we can understand the reason behind doing it if you are based in the US (once again I don’t know specifics of the activities of whether he was pretending to be fishy or not, but just assuming not for now). So shouldn’t we have at least some compassion for existing within the gray area?
Just my 2 cents.
In regards to pragmatics and lawyerism, I cannot resolve the belief the community’s moral opinion should change in light of what you point to. We don’t want to change our core moral view because our response will not get the result we are looking for. But I will meet you partway and wish for a better, more useful response from the community. However. You are about to reveal in the following quote’s of yours, that you are not very well educated on what the actual topic of discussion is…and to me, this is far more important and in a sense quite hypocritical in contrast/comparison to the point you make here.
It is very similar with the Mercier example, which I completely understand but do not at all sympathize with. What you point at is NOT AT ALL reason to sympathize with BH, but rather it is a symptom of the truth of the state of the games today. Pointing out such pros, ESPECIALLY Poker Stars pros, are somewhat “pegged” into these positions because of unfair regulation, is not at all a justification but rather something that needs to be immediately addressed and dealt with.
The issue here of course, and this IS something I sympathize with, the community IS a POS. HOWEVER, I do not see you, or other such like minded, creative, and intelligent thinkers, in this global community. I might suggest this is your fault, and others like you that left…whereas you might rightfully suggest you left for this very reason.
Now we both hopefully perfectly see the highlighted issue and the impasse.
Please explain, seriously. I don’t understand what you mean about me being “better than this post.” Like I said, I’m not condoning the behavior at ALL. I’m just providing a point of view on the realities of the situation.
You do not yet in this thread realize the specific context, although later in your responses you realize this. However, so far in all your responses you have not at all seemed to have realized the scope and gravity of this situation. Furthermore, like many other pros and Poker Stars pros, you do not seem at all to be addressing the sick state of the games and ipoker in general.
That’s why I also used quotation marks around “right thing.” I agree with you that it isn’t, I’m just saying in the minds of people who do this, they believe it’s more right than not to tell the people they’re playing. I would agree that it is wrong to multiaccount, but if you’re going to do it, it’s more right to tell people than to not tell people. That’s all I mean about the gray area.
I understand perfectly it is a reasonably moral response to MA, whether telling people or not, however the REAL discussion is about the completely immoral and anti-freedom actions of the US government which has imposed unnecessary restrictions on its citizens in (specific) regards to their freedom to gamble with the rest of the world, under the disguise of protecting its citizens.
This is the real reason that there is this unsolvable rampant MA-problem isn’t it?
OK it seems the specifics of this situation are more complicated/worse than I thought, so carry on and nevermind, sorry I chimed in without knowing a ton about the details. I’m super out of the loop and should have just kept my mouth shut!
(My point still stands from a hypothetical perspective on less insidious MA’ing, i.e. changing screen name once to play from US, which probably happens all the time)
You can have any points you want but you have made it increasingly clear that you are not engaged with the community debates which include among many other complaints, ridiculous player pool restrictions, regulations and restrictions that go against common sense natural rights, horrible software/customer service, over raked games, collusion problems, bot problems, and the addition of variants that do nothing but bleed the skill games of their claim. I understand why you and others have left this community, but only you and such others have the political power to address these issues, and all we see is you and such others sticking up for MA-ers and obvious angle shooting cheaters.
Yeah sorry this was the distinction I thought I was making and I thought it was an important point to distinguish between those two cases before crucifying anyone this harshly. I didn’t realize this was an already established account which is obviously an entirely different scenario. Like I said I didn’t know all the info and never should have entered the thread. Just super busy and didn’t have time to read the whole thing and made a bad assumption based on false second hand info. Totally my bad there. Carry on.
It’s all fine but there are pressing issues that the players need help with, and this goes all the way to the top tiers of your nations politics.
I’m not supporting violating the TOC. What I’m saying is I think crucifying the few people that choose to come out to select people and thus get outed more easily will lead to a lot more secret MA’ing. Using these examples productively to show it’s happening, can’t really be stopped, and trying to create change in the rules is a more productive use of energy. That’s all I was saying, and I stand by that.
And once again, it’s obviously not as relevant in this specific case, but I do think it’s worth mentioning seeing as how this is a MA thread. Why not lobby PS to make a change in the rules? Organize a player’s union and have a strike? Fight harder for legislation? I’m just saying (as myself, not as a representative of PS obviously here) that there are more productive things to do and I believe that using so much energy for internet/real life hate is actually counterproductive to our goals given the real state of the online poker world.
Lastly, obviously I’m not arguing that we should forget it and move on and remain apathetic. Anyone that knows me knows I don’t advocate apathy. It’s just frustrating to see the same thing time and again – someone does something bad, everyone piles on forever until they forget, and nothing changes other than more people do the stuff in secret.
Without the most intelligent and creatives minds being prevalent in the community how could we expect any better? We have technological advances that sway all of these issues into our favor. I simply wish for those that have no interest in the profitability and sustainability of the game step down from their positions.
I think most people are in fact arguing this exact point. That’s the thing that irks me. Everyone is completely self-righteous when these threads arise and doesn’t understand this basic point you make up top (that levels of offenses exist). And then when the thread dies, everyone goes back to being a lazy ****, with the most sanctimonious of the lot probably scamming other people or doing other shady things to boot.
There is a worry here though that this subject is not at all the only incredibly relevant and significant one that you are somewhat oblivious to, yet could not be more politically responsible for (among other well known players of course).
It’s just like someone else mentioned… there’s ridiculous amounts of this kind of stuff going on every day in the poker world, even at high stakes, and everyone who is actually in it is hears of it every day. I feel like the lack of distinguishing levels of offenses actually contributes to the apathy because our response tends to be “oh, more cheaters, whatever” and then people occasionally go after the people that are easiest to go after/best poker players rather than the people who commit the worst offenses who are just known regular scammers and get away with it day in and out. And surprise, surprise, the probability of everyone looking the other way is in direct negative correlation with the scammer/cheater’s skill at poker! I guess it offends my notions of criminal justice, as well as screaming hypocrisy.
I’m quite confident here that you said you do not like the current justice system in poker. I’m not sure if you mean it should be changed, or that you don’t like the irl system either. I think both can be addressed. I tried to send you some links to Nick Szabo (http://szabo.best.vwh.net/delegation.pdf), I really think you knowing him and reading that work will be game changing for all of us.
Thanks for responding intelligently and being part of small minority that actually attempts reading comprehension. After reading the rest of the BS responses to my comments, it’s clear you’re right — a temporary lapse in judgment on my part to come back to this POS forum. I’ll take the over on 2017 if you want to bet.
Many people pointed out the flaw in your argument, which you admit comes from not being fully engaged in the first place. We should not expect much intelligence either when so much of it has clearly left. What you seemingly fail to realize or address is a sick poker economy will result in a sick community and vice versa, but also that such a sick poker economy will be a symptom of a sick irl political environment.
IMO, We should collectively address this.
WTF are you talking about? Did you actually read the post I wrote? Giftcard scam for $50? Small stakes colluding? I said the worst offenses are ignored every day if people have money that they are seemingly going to donate to the poker world. And no I don’t really feel like outing people because the list is just too damn long, my memory sucks for details that I don’t care too much to remember, and I don’t have direct evidence because I don’t talk to people in these circles very often and I don’t play in these games. So no, these aren’t my good friends, and I’m not gaining financially from any of this BS. If anything, speaking my mind and opting out of the system just hurts my bottom line on a routine basis. So just get over your high horses… if you disagree with my points then so be it, but I have a valid point, so the condescending holier-than-thou attitudes you’re taking instead of respectful and intelligent disagreement are just cringeworthy to me.
I just hear rumors or stories every goddamn week of 5 figures or more allegedly being scammed in one way or other. That was also my point about Jason Mercier and you guys all going on another witchhunt. If everyone were supposed to out everything every day that they heard about, then everyone should be banned from poker.
I mean, lol, someone in this thread just accused “me and my crew” of ghosting them on paradise poker in 2006. I’m pretty sure I had never even heard of paradise poker, and I sure don’t have any clue who my “crew” was. Someone wanna report that to the authorities too?
Lastly: in before “well Jason heard it directly from Brian so it’s way different than mere rumors.” OK fine, even accepting that argument and ceding for argument’s sake that he had a responsibility to report… how do you even know he didn’t report it to Stars? You think Jason has a magical switch or knows someone with the switch at PS whereby Jason notifies someone and PS just snap deactivates the account? I mean, please, just have a reality check here. Things take time, investigations have to happen, etc. etc. and there’s no way of knowing whether or not he did in fact tell someone at PS.
Its difficult to rate which examples are actually worse in regards to these “crimes”, on the one hand a lot of money is a a lot of money, but when the best players and best known players are cheating and both doing so publicly but also being exposed publicly, I can’t really think of anything worse for the game. Everything else you point at I understand your perspective but I urge you to help us change the way this game is setup and played. So far you have reprimanded the community while not at all taking the time to fully understand the situation.
Not that strange to promote the good aspects of it and work towards legislation and regulation which will prevent a lot of the MA’ing issues as well as lead to real legal consequences for people who cheat/steal in other ways.
Anyways I’m done hijacking this thread. I never wanted it to turn into that but I had no idea how many random personal attacks I was going to have to deal with. Please just carry on with the witch-hunts or whatever else.
I saw many people point out that your points weren’t valid or on subject, but personal attacks I also think are not useful.
I know I said I was done posting here, but I’m frustrated because everyone is assuming they know me or my motivations in posting and they don’t.
Just wanted to clear up: I am not friends with Brian Hastings. None of my friends multiaccount (that I know of). I do not gain financially from a system that ignores cheaters or cheating, nor do I advocate that we ignore cheaters or cheating.
I was just fed up with everyone pretending and trying to be a realist but nevermind… I should have stayed out of it to begin with like I usually do, so that was my bad for giving a **** when it wasn’t my turn to give a ****.
I really am done here, but this is for the record, one final time. I am not friends with Brian. I am not here defending Brian. What Brian did was very wrong, especially the deception in the cash games and using a prior account. I have NO ulterior motives, and I have not “lost my sense of morality” or condone cheating or unethical behavior in any way.
I don’t think you or others should stay out of it, not if you care about the sustainability and profitability of the game. There are multiple projects in development right now that allow the players of the world to legally play poker with each other in a p2p fashion. This technology flies above government regulation and the security is a strong as bitcoin. Collusion, bots, over-raked games, and multi-accounting have all been addressed. These projects need yours and other well known and well respected pros support-all they need is a small amount of levation so the public can get behind them. Here is a 20 page whitepaper on one such project: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vxjxE-7QMAvo95UzhWftWJ3Ke_gAoNLTQQEudNeUQeY/edit
I have written about all this the best I understand and especially in relation to law, so that the players can understand what this technology means to them. Your frustration is unwarranted , you are clearly consumed by something imo, because you do not see we HAVE the tools we need for change.
The future model for poker sites: https://thewealthofchips.wordpress.com/2015/06/15/3194/
Thank-you any readers for your time!